#144: The Art and Science Behind Negotiation with Chris Voss
#144: The Art and Science Behind Negotiation with Chris Voss
Have you ever wondered what goes through the mind of a hostage negotiation expert? In this episode, we talk with Chris Voss, formally the FBI’s leading international hostage and kidnapping negotiator. Now he spends his time as an author, professor, CEO of the Black Swan Group, and teaching his Masterclass: Teaching the Art of Negotiation which shows others how to apply his learnings from international crises and high-stakes negotiations to the business world. Chris is regarded as one of the most influential negotiators of our time. He wrote the best-selling book, “Never Split the Difference,” which lays out actionable negotiation strategies and is known as the bible of negotiation. Chris joins us on YAP today to teach us how to negotiate as if our lives depended on it and become more persuasive in both our professional and personal lives. In today’s episode, Chris shares his knowledge with the YAP podcast. He tells us about his journey from FBI agent to hostage negotiation and what specific negotiation tactics he uses and why they have been so successful. Chris covers the reason why giving someone a chance to start with saying “no” can be more useful than getting them to start with saying “yes”. We learn about the neuroscience behind why tactical empathy is the best way to diffuse a situation and get someone to say the magic phrase, “that’s right!” Chris teaches his 7, 38, 55 body language method and tells us that people don’t remember what you said, they remember how they felt. If you are looking to learn how to negotiate your way through any situation, you don’t want to miss this episode! Chris is a past guest so check out episode #23! Here is a link to the past episode: https://youngandprofiting.com/23-negotiate-like-a-boss-with-christopher-voss/
Sponsored by –
Notion – Get up to $1,000 off Notion’s team plan by going to notion.com/startups
Indeed – Get a $75 credit at indeed.com/profiting
Jordan Harbinger – Check out jordanharbinger.com/start for some episode recommendations Ritual – Get 10% off during your first 3 months. Visit ritual.com/YAP to add Essential Protein today Athletic Greens –
Visit athleticgreens.com/YAP and get FREE 1 year supply of immune-supporting Vitamin D AND 5 FREE travel packs with your first purchase.
Follow YAP on IG: www.instagram.com/youngandprofiting
Reach out to Hala directly at [email protected]
Follow Hala on Linkedin: www.linkedin.com/in/htaha/
Follow Hala on Instagram: www.instagram.com/yapwithhala
Follow Hala on Clubhouse: @halataha Check out our website to meet the team, view show notes and transcripts: www.youngandprofiting.com
00:55- How Chris Got Into Negotiation
03:21- Understanding Energy in Negotiations
08:10- Why We Need Tactical Empathy and Autonomy
17:55- “You’re Right” Vs. “That’s Right”
22:56- Examples of Tactical Empathy
31:15- The Power of No
35:05- Giving the Illusion of Control
37:00- Accusation Audits
41:06- 7/38/55 Rule of Body Language
51:44- Chris’ Advice for Sensitive Conversations
54:55- Chris’ Secret to Profiting in Life
Mentioned in the Episode:
Book: Never Split the Difference https://www.amazon.com/Never-Split-Difference-Negotiating-Depended/dp/0062407805
Subscribe to Chris’ Newsletter via Text: 33777, black swan method
#144: The Art and Science Behind Negotiation with Chris Voss
[00:00:00] Hala Taha: You're listening to YAP. Young And Profiting Podcast, a place where you can listen, learn, and profit. Welcome to the show. I'm your host, Hala Taha. And on Young And Profiting Podcast. We investigate a new topic each week and interview some of the brightest minds in the world. My goal is to turn their wisdom into actionable advice that you can use in your everyday life.
[00:00:25] No matter your age, profession, or industry, there's no fluff on this podcast and that's on purpose. I'm here to uncover value from guest by doing the proper research and asking the right questions. If you're new to the show, we've chatted with the likes of ex FBI agents, real estate moguls, self-made billionaires, CEOs, and best-selling authors. Our subject matter ranges from enhancing productivity, how to gain, influence the art of entrepreneurship and more. If you're smart and like to continually improve yourself, hit the subscribe button because you'll love [00:01:00] it here at Young And Profiting Podcast.
[00:01:03] This week on YAP. We're welcoming back. Chris Voss formally the FBI's lead international hostage and kidnapping negotiator. These days Chris spends his time as an author, professor and CEO of the Black Swan Group. He's regarded as one of the most influential negotiators of our time. And he wrote the best-selling book.
[00:01:24] Never Split the Difference. Known as the Bible of negotiation. Chris joins us on YAP today to teach us how to negotiate, as if our lives depended on it and how to become more persuasive in our professional and personal lives. Chris first joined me all the way back in episode number 23, Negotiate Like A Boss with Christopher Voss.
[00:01:45] And I also did a YAP live with him, not too long ago on clubhouse with Alex Carter. And that room really blew up. We must have had 10,000 people in and out of that room. It was such a blast to have him back on the show this time around. And it's always an honor to [00:02:00] speak with such a credible expert like Chris. In today's episode, Chris details his journey from FBI agent to hostage negotiator, and we'll cover his negotiation tactics in detail.
[00:02:11] For example, we'll learn why starting with saying no. And a negotiation could be more useful than starting with yes. And we'll uncover the neuroscience, behind tactical empathy and why that's the best way to diffuse the situation. We'll also get into body language covering Chris's 7 30, 8 55 body language method.
[00:02:30] And lastly, Chris will share examples of real life situations where these negotiation tactics can be used in your day-to-day life. So you can practice before a high stakes situation takes place. If you're looking to learn how to negotiate your way through any situation, you'll want to listen in closely to this episode and even maybe rewind it a few times.
[00:02:51] Enjoy the show.
[00:02:54] Hi Chris, welcome toYoung And Profiting Podcast. Super excited to have you here today. [00:03:00]
[00:03:00] Chris Voss: I'm flattered to be on. It's my pleasure.
[00:03:02] Hala Taha: So you were back in episode number 23, it was called Negotiate Like a Boss. It was one of our YAP classics, one of the most downloaded episodes ever on this podcast.
[00:03:12] So very psyched to have you back on. I know my listeners love your stuff. I also had you on clubhouse in alive, and we replayed it on the podcast with Alex Carter. Who's the world's number one female negotiation expert. And you are the top male negotiation expert, I would say in the world. So just so thankful to have you here today.
[00:03:32] Chris Voss: Thank you very much. It's my pleasure.
[00:03:34] Hala Taha: Okay. So for those of the people listening out there who haven't heard episode number 23, we went into your career journey and how you got into negotiation. So I'd love to hear that high level. How did you get into this space?
[00:03:48] Chris Voss: I was an FBI agent and then I was on FBI SWAT.
[00:03:53] And then I switched over to negotiation, hostage negotiation, by accident as a result of a knee [00:04:00] injury. And thank God for, moments like that, that make your life go another direction because asked us to negotiation was way more satisfying for me personally. It's whatever it was. And SWAT was a lot of fun.
[00:04:14] Hala Taha: Yeah, it's so interesting that your diversion from SWAT was because of a knee injury, and that actually led you to a path, where you became the top of your field. You probably took it in a way where you thought you were never going to take it. Did you ever think you were going to be an author?
[00:04:29] Chris Voss: Early on. I don't think I really thought about it that much. No, I didn't. I didn't give this a lot of thought earlier. I just figured I'd do it, just do it.
[00:04:36] Hala Taha: Yeah. Would you say that you were naturally good at negotiation growing up? Like how did you know that being an FBI hostage, negotiator would be a good fit for you?
[00:04:47] Chris Voss: Yeah. Then you know, it, first of all it didn't sound that hard. It's a lot of things that other people make look easy. You don't sound hard, or I have a lot of depth to them and require a lot of study and complex. So [00:05:00] I would just, I just want to try it because the thing I always liked about crisis response was decisions have to be made.
[00:05:07] You can't procrastinate, you can't delay as a quote from John F. Kennedy. A long time, we were talking about the risks and costs of comfortable, inaction being much greater long time than, and I'm completely paraphrasing him now, but any
mistake now is not going to cost you as much as comfortable in actions going to cost you.
[00:05:29] So I liked it because you had to make decisions and then the negotiation stuff got started and I just love it. Just, it spoke to me. I enjoyed it.
[00:05:38] Hala Taha: Awesome. So you brought up negotiations, we'll start to dig really deep and episode number 23. We were pretty high level. We covered the basic ground. So I'm going to go super deep asking you about examples, asking for real life stories, scenarios, and really just go deep.
[00:05:55] So let's start off with energy. This is something that we didn't talk about [00:06:00] in the last podcast. And it's really important. Just understanding the energy of the room, understanding the energy of your opponent. What should we look for in terms of the energy of the people that we're trying to negotiate with?
[00:06:12] And then how do we use that information to be better at negotiation?
[00:06:16] Chris Voss: So if you stop and think and perceive and sorta add it up, if they've got energy the energy is really going to be a dead giveaway as to what they have in mind, are they distracted? Are they focused on you? Is there a good vibe?
[00:06:30] If they're distracted, they're not looking to make a deal or something's in a way there are other pressures. They're probably not going to make the deal. If they have an aggressive energy towards you, which a lot of people might misinterpret as being bad, good news is they're looking to make a deal.
[00:06:44] Aggression is a good thing from a counterpart. In that it signals their intent to deal with you. So yeah, the energy is a really good thing. Now the flip side of that is I don't believe in matching people's [00:07:00] energy because that makes you the second mover. And when I was teaching negotiation to illustrate this point, I used to, we used to play tic-tac-toe and I'd say which one would tic TAC toe do you want to be first?
[00:07:15] Do you want to be second? If you go first and you know what you're doing, you can't lose. You can only win or tie if you go second and that's, what's wrong with being a second mover, the best you could do is tie. That's why you want to go first and tic-tac-toe because you want to win. And interestingly enough, chess is the same way.
[00:07:36] That's why there's an advantage to be white because white moves first. So what does this have to do with energy? Your energy should always probably be pass. You've got a good, natural, positive energy. There's some mechanisms, there's a new book out that I'm reading or it's not that new.
[00:07:51] It's new to me, Antifragile by Nassim Nicholas Taleb. Waltzer with the Black Swan, which is the idea that inspired the
[00:08:00] name of my company. Battalion talks about being antifragile, which means you don't just survive from negative events. You grow up, it makes you smart. And he says, curiosity is an anti-fragile mindset.
[00:08:20] It's an energy, it's a demeanor. It's a way of being, I can, if you're curious, you're going to have positive energy. If you're genuinely curious, you're going to bring out the best in both the other side and yourself. So that's why I say don't match their energy, be positive, be genuinely curious.
[00:08:36] Hala Taha: So no matter what energy they are come positive, come curious. Now what's the best frame of mind that you want your opponent to be like, do you want, if they come in positive, is that always a good thing? Or could that also be something we should be weary of?
[00:08:52] Chris Voss: You're 31% smarter in a positive frame of mind.
[00:08:55] It helps you that your counterpart is positive also. So many of the [00:09:00] negotiation strategies are designed to at least get them out of a negative mindset, because no one collaborates, well in a negative mindset, they just negative mindsets that downward spiral. So yeah, I'm going to want my I'm going to want my counterpart to be positive in their interactions with me, it's going to make them want to have a long-term prosperous relationship.
[00:09:20] I, you and I were talking about being in clubhouse earlier. I interviewed Mark Cuban recently on a similar. And Cuban is positive. However he's portrayed on shark tank. Some people think he's a bully, but Cuban's positive. And he wants to collaborate. Everything he does is about a great long-term relationship, which is how you make a lot of money.
[00:09:41] It's how you, how a guy like mark Cuban, who, when he started his company slept on a floor or somebodies apartment. Now he's a billionaire. Positivity is a great success mode. So yeah, be positive. Be true.
[00:09:55] Hala Taha: I totally agree. So you mentioned earlier, or just [00:10:00] now that you want to make sure that you're positive, you diffuse the negativity.
[00:10:04] So let's talk about tactical empathy. And let's talk about the reason why people need you to diffuse the negative energy, and what that does to the conversation. And also why people love to be autonomous. Like why is that important having autonomy talk to us about that.
[00:10:22] Chris Voss: So we're naturally in a negative mindset, survival mode, our default wiring, if you will, is on the negative side is what kept the cave men alive.
[00:10:32] The optimistic cave man got eaten by the bear every time a negative pessimistic caveman was like, I'm getting out of here. So that's a wiring that we're born with. When you wake up in the morning, you're in a naturally, somewhat negative mode because it was necessary for survival.
[00:10:50] That's why it's really smart to have a gratitude exercise. When you first get out of bed in the morning, it's like mental hygiene, other my counterpart, they're going to be negative. I [00:11:00] know that because they're human. I'm going to throw some stuff out right off the bat to diffuse it, not to make them positive, but to diffuse the negative, there's a real big difference.
[00:11:12] And then I'm going to sprinkle it in periodically. If I'm getting ready to ask you something by definition, your caveman brain is going to say, ah, it's greedy. They're asking for too much. I know that's how you're wired as a human being. You can't help. So the diffusing mechanism is I'm going to say this is going to seem greedy and that not only diffuses, but inoculates it.
[00:11:38] Somebody asked me what it costs to hire my company or to hire music consultant. I'm going to say more than you've ever spent in your life more than you have, because first of all, my prices are high. And secondly, I don't want you to get caught off guard by the number. [00:12:00] So that's because your natural negative wiring.
[00:12:03] So I'm gonna let that sink in. And then you are going to decide whether or not you want to hear the number, getting to your second point, which is autonomy. I need to preserve your autonomy. I need you to choose whether or not you want to hear the number. I don't need to sell you on it. I will need you to choose it.
[00:12:21] That preserves your time. Then when you're ready, I've diffused a negative. I preserved your autonomy. You're going to go. All right, how much is, and then the other thing I know, that the number you imagine is going to be higher than a number that I throw out. So my number is actually going to seem like a relief.
[00:12:43] Hala Taha: That's really smart. So let's dig deeper on tactical empathy because people get confused empathy with sympathy and even agreement. So talk to us about the difference between those three.
[00:12:55] Chris Voss: Yeah. So let's talk about the mercenaries definition of empathy, over the hostage [00:13:00] negotiators is why reasonably started collaborating with Harvard way back when.
[00:13:04] Because as a hostage negotiator, if I use empathy, you can't be sympathy. How could I use sympathy without kinder? How they, how are they going to believe? I'm sympathetic to their cause and that, or, a Marxist gorilla faction in Columbia, south America someplace, I'm not going to think I'm sympathetic, but how do I use empathy?
[00:13:24] Just demonstrating that I understand where they're coming from. Or, one of my favorite examples is we had a terrorism trial, we had a bunch of Muslim witnesses. Testified voluntarily. How did I get them to testify voluntarily? I'd sit down with them. And I'd say you believe, that there's been a succession of United States governments for the last 200 years that have been anti-Islamic that's an empathy statement.
[00:13:49] There was no sympathy in there. There was a demonstration of understanding. There was no, no agreement again, to your point. I never said the us government was [00:14:00] anti-Islamic. I just say you believe this X period. It's empathy. It's kinda that simple. So the FBI has rental law wrongdoing that, and then I read Bob Moluccans book at Harvard and he says exactly the same thing.
[00:14:16] Empathy is not agreement. Empathy is not even liking the other side. It's just stating what their opinions. All right, cool. I can use that with them.
[00:14:25] Hala Taha: So if I could just explain this to my listeners, make sure they fully understand it. You're using tactical empathy to basically dismantle the elephant in the room, diffuse the negativity. And make it so that everything's just out on the table and they feel do they, it makes them feel more comfortable.
[00:14:44] Like what does it actually do to them?
[00:14:46] Chris Voss: Yeah. And I love your phrase, dismantle the elephant in the room, versus denying that it's there or pretending that you love the elephant. I love elephants. Now you don't like elephants. It's right there though. So it makes people [00:15:00] feel validated to feel understood is this.
[00:15:06] Almost magical transformation that happens in people. And here's why it seems magical. When we were first working on the book, Tahl Raz, a coauthor said, I think when you demonstrate epiphany or empathy, it creates an epiphany. Any other person I realization like, it's what people say. They say, that's right.
[00:15:29] When you demonstrated empathy. That's right. That's how I feel. I'm into neuroscience these days, I looked up a pithany on the web and it said, when you experienced an epiphany among the neurochemicals, that are triggered internally are oxytocin and oxytocin is a bonding drug. So when someone feels understood by me, I know they bond with me.
[00:15:55] And if I'm looking to make a deal. And have a long-term [00:16:00] relationship. I'm want you to bond with me because you're going to, then now you're going to collaborate. So that's, it's a really indirect route to save a lot of time.
[00:16:08] Hala Taha: And I can imagine it makes them feel safe and feel like it's okay to tell you information, which in a negotiation it's all about getting as much information as possible.
[00:16:17] Chris Voss: Exactly. That's right.
[00:16:20] But what you did.
[00:16:21] Hala Taha: Yeah. And since you brought up that's right, we're going to have to break that down to our core listeners. So tell us about these magical words. That's right. And why your right is actually, not what you want to hear. And that's right. Is once you hear those words, that you're on the right track.
[00:16:37] Chris Voss: It's where people say, when they feel completely understood or completely represented by the other side, and this, the empathy moment, the oxytocin moment is insane. As an example. It's why common ground is for grade C level negotiators, tactical empathy, that's right [00:17:00] moments. That's really a plus people.
[00:17:02] And I'll give you an example because regardless of what you think of Donald Trump, whether you're a supportive of them or against them, you're either perplexed or proud of the fact, that his followers follow him, come what may. And he said early on in his presidency, I could shoot somebody on fifth avenue and my supporters would still be behind me.
[00:17:28] Now, what happened? They'd created this bond with them. Was it common ground? When Trump first ran for president, all the pundits said he'll never get elected, because he's a New Yorker. He's a billionaire, he's a white male, but the New Yorker and billionaire stuff, means he has no common ground with the Republican base and they will never embrace.
[00:17:49] Clearly they embraced them. Despite sharing no common ground, as people would normally define it. So what is it when he stood up and started talking about this stuff that he believed [00:18:00] in at some point in time, people listening to him said, that's right. That's what I believe in. Trump would be up there and say, I hate the media and all the Republicans that hate the media would go like that's right.
[00:18:13] The media is an evil thing. He says, lame stream media and vast majority of the Republican base believed that the media is biased. So he was saying things and people were saying, that's right, creating a bond to be envy. If you love Donald Trump, you want to emulate what he did. If you hate Donald Trump, you're mad at what he did, because it's such a huge bond then me and my team we think, if Donald Trump doesn't tell you.
[00:18:41] What oxytocin will do for you in terms of building relationships, that you are not paying attention.
[00:18:49] Hala Taha: And now a quick break from our sponsors.
[00:18:54] Hey, Young And Profiters. Are you curious about what podcasts, I listen to you as the host of a [00:19:00] number one podcast myself? I'll let you in on a secret. My favorite podcast aside from mine of course, is the Jordan Harbinger show.
[00:19:08] The Jordan Harbinger show is a top shelf podcast named best of Apple in 2018. Jordan is literally the best podcast, or I know I looked up to him so much as a podcast, that I've willed him to become my podcast mentor. And now we talk every single day, Jordan dives into the minds of fascinating people in his podcast, from top athletes and best-selling authors to scientists and spy.
[00:19:33] He's got this undeniable talent for getting his guests to share, never been heard before stories and thought provoking insights without fail. He pulls out tactical bits of wisdom and each episode. He's also got this strangely relatable weekly segment called Feedback Friday. Where he answers fan mail and then gives his advice on relationship, career and family problems.
[00:19:53] It is really entertaining. If you like YAP. You're going to love the Jordan Harbinger show because I've only been
[00:20:00] called the female version of Jordan, about a bajillion times. Jordan is a lot like me, but I think he's funnier. Point blank. Jordan is smart and easy to listen to. You'll be pressed to find an episode without excellent conversation, a few laughs and actionable advice that can directly improve your life. Search for the Jordan Harbinger show.
[00:20:18] That's H a R B as in boy, I N as in Nancy, G E R on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
[00:20:30] Our next partner is a product that I now use. Literally every single day, I started taking athletic greens because while running app, I sometimes find myself not having enough time in the day to do everything. I have to choose between working out or prepping a healthy meal. And I don't like to do that.
[00:20:47] So having an option like Athletic Greens. Allows me to get everything done without any sacrifice. Athletic Greens is my productivity secret. Stuff that everyone can't stop talking about with one delicious scoop of [00:21:00] Athletic Greens, you're absorbing 75 high quality vitamins, minerals, whole food source, superfoods, and probiotics to help start your day.
[00:21:08] The special blend of ingredients supports your gut health, your nervous system, your immune system, your energy recovery, focus, and aging. It's everything you need. And just one scoop. I've been taking Athletic Greens just for a few weeks, and I've already noticed a huge boost in my energy. I'm normally looking for another cup of coffee in the middle of the day, but I haven't really needed it since I started using Athletic Greens..
[00:21:31] I feel like I don't get tired as often in my workouts. And I feel like working out more in general, I feel more motivated and have the energy and don't dread my workouts. Like I used to. I'm also actually following through with this routine. I personally always have trouble with taking my vitamins. I tried everything.
[00:21:49] For example, one time I got this personalized vitamin pack, that came to my door and it's really cute. It comes in a cute box. They have these little packets with my name on it, but taking eight pills [00:22:00] at once makes me feel like a horse. It hurts my stomach to take all those pills at once. And I ended up never wanting to take them.
[00:22:06] And quite frankly, Pills are just collecting dust on my nightstand. Athletic Greens is different. You just mix in a scoop with water, and then drink this green liquid that tastes like a mild tropical goodness. And because you mix it with water, the nutrients and vitamins are actually more efficiently absorbed in your body.
[00:22:24] No more horse pills, Athletic Greens is lifestyle friendly. Keto, paleo, vegan, dairy free or gluten free. It can work for all of you. It contains less than one gram of sugar, no GMOs, no nasty chemicals or artificial, anything. And it still tastes great. It's time to reclaim your health and arm your immune system with convenient daily nutrition, especially when we're heading into the flu and cold season.
[00:22:49] It's just one scoop in a cup of water every day. That's it? No need for a million different pills and supplements, to look out for your health anymore. To make it easy. Athletic greens is [00:23:00] going to give all my young and profiter a free one-year supply of immune supporting vitamin D and five free travel packs with your first purchase.
[00:23:09] All you have to do is visit athleticgreens.com/YAP. Again, that's athleticgreens.com/YAP to take ownership over your health and pick up the ultimate daily nutrition insurance. That's athleticgreens.com/YAP.
[00:23:23] This episode of yap is brought to you by Indeed. This past year has presented so many challenges and every area of your life. From the living room to the virtual boardroom, you keep putting in the work at home. So why not? Let indeed do the work of hiring for you. Don't struggle on your own to find quality candidates.
[00:23:43] Indeed can help you hire the right people. Right now, Indeed, as a hiring partner, that gets you, what you really want, a short list of quality candidates as fast as possible, because you can do it all attract interview and hire all at Indeed. I can tell
[00:24:00] you from personal experience back when I worked corporate, whenever I was looking for a new job, I'd always go to Indeed.
[00:24:06] First to look for job posting. Indeed is where all the top tier talent hangs out. Indeed partners with you on every stage of the hiring process. So you can find talent with the skills, you need through tools like Indeed instant match assessments and virtual interviews. And with Indeed assessments, you can reduce hiring time by 12%.
[00:24:26] According to Indeed data, worldwide assessments are a game changer. It's so great to know. You're hiring a person who actually knows how to do the job and doesn't have a resume that just says they does. It's super awkward when you hire a person and then they don't have the relevant skills and you have to let them go.
[00:24:43] Avoid all that hassle with Indeed assessments. Right now, you can get started at indeed.com/profiting and get a $75 sponsored job credit, to upgrade your job post that's indeed.com/profiting for a $75 job credit for your [00:25:00] next job post. The offer is valid through December 31st terms and conditions apply need to hire you need Indeed.
[00:25:10] It's so interesting. It's so true. It's whether you love him or you hate him, he's got some amazing persuasive skills. Like he's incredible. We actually had Scott Adams on the show. He wrote a whole book about it and we talked about it was super interesting. So let's talk about since we're on this topic, your right versus that's right.
[00:25:28] Chris Voss: Yeah. Thanks for bringing that back up again. Cause a lot of people won't think that you're right is, the same as that's right. And it's not, everybody's guilty of this, everybody listened to your podcast. I know all of you listeners out there sometime in the last week, somebody that you love or somebody that you have to keep, the relationship with has been hammering you about something you don't want to do. And you can't get them to stop and you look them in the eye and you're right.
[00:25:57] And they shut up and they stopped bothering you. [00:26:00] You're right. Is a really polite way. The it's somebody that either yet love, or you have to keep a relationship with to leave you alone, to get them to stop talking. There's no shortage of wives, who have realized that if they look at their husband, when he's given her a hard time about something and she looks at him and says, you're right, he will stop bothering you.
[00:26:30] That's how effective it is. So people use it. But the flip side of it is everybody does it. And nobody thinks that it's being done to them. Like I can lose for you. It's been done to you. And that's why you got it. You got to know the difference. And it's huge. The implication, if I could share a short story.
[00:26:51] But in mine, Tim Larkin runs a self-defense company out of Vegas. Good guy. Name of his book is When Violence Is the [00:27:00] Answer. It's the answer like he doesn't advocate, but he's there are moments in your life, that the only thing that's going to save you is violence. And so if that's true, you got to know how to do it.
[00:27:11] He's in a black belt hall of fame. He's a sweetheart of a guy, very low key. Dude, I meet him. He says, you saved me so much money. I'm like, cool. How did it happen? He had this whole team together and his company he's laying out strategy. He thinks he's putting everybody on the right track and he's got it going on.
[00:27:29] He's explaining. And one of the senior executives looks at him and says, Tim you're right. And he just, it stops them dead in his tracks. And he says, holy cow, I am so far off base with my guys that they're politely asking me to shut up. So he, he didn't get offended. He's a smart dude. He took it for what it was worth.
[00:27:51] He stopped me. He went and talked to each one of his guys and figured out what all the problems were and aligned everybody [00:28:00] on the mission. And he said if I had never read, never split the difference, out of thought it was a great meeting. I didn't ever realize that one of my guys was suddenly telling me like, Tim, we can't take it anymore.
[00:28:12] You're on the wrong track. I have thought you're right. Was a great response. He says, you saved me so much money. And I got my team back together understanding, that was a sign that I was off track.
[00:28:24] Hala Taha: It's so true. I feel like now, and the sucky part is that you I've learned this before, and then you forget about it because it's so natural.
[00:28:33] And I feel like I've already learned this before, but I hope that it sticks to everybody tuning in this time. That when somebody says you're right, it means that a they don't want to hear what you're saying anymore. They want you to shut up. They're not taking your advice. They don't agree with you, but for that's right.
[00:28:49] I guess the one question that I have is that really the only phrase, that we need to look for or are there variations of that's right?
[00:28:56] Chris Voss: Oh, you can get variations of an [00:29:00] attainment. Black Swan team we've been trying to decide, is it like one star? That's right. It's a five star, you're going to hear that's it exactly.
[00:29:07] You're going to hear, you got it. You're going to hear various versions of it. You might hear that's right. It really if you, when they say it, who you're really going for is if you could tell. When they say it, they felt a sense of relief or, they felt a new idea. Come to them. Now, any versions of it are good, those are all good.
[00:29:32] But the, you may need an accumulation. You may be leaving something out. You may not quite have headed exactly with them. Any version of it is a good version, as long as it's not your right. You're on the right track. You're communicate.
[00:29:44] Hala Taha: It's going back to that energy thing that we were just talking about.
[00:29:47] It's the energy that we're looking for. So if they're like, oh yeah, you're right. You're right. And they're just moving the conversation along, rather than you feel like they're resonating with what you're saying.
[00:29:58] Chris Voss: Yes.
[00:29:58] Yeah. Good point. I [00:30:00] liked the way you put that. I like your focus on energy.
[00:30:02] That makes it big difference.
[00:30:03] Hala Taha: Yeah. Okay. So I want to get in some real. Examples of this tactical empathy. And I'm going to say a phrase about the way somebody is feeling in a situation. And then I'd love for you to say the sympathetic way that somebody could respond to that. And then the tactical empathy way that someone can respond to that. Okay.
[00:30:24] It's like a game.
[00:30:25] Yes. This is like a negotiation game show with Chriss Voss and Hala Taha. Okay. So let's say your opponent thinks, you're an arrogant jerk based on your past hot headed interactions. How do you diffuse that elephant in the room in a sympathetic way, which is the wrong way. And then in an empathetic way, which is the right way.
[00:30:46] Chris Voss: Sympathetic way would probably be like, I understand my dad was an arrogant, hot headed jerk, and it was it was really hard for me to deal with him too.
[00:30:54] That would be like trying to share the experience. I understand is what [00:31:00] people often say when they're trying to be sympathetic, but they want to give you an example of their own experience and how they dealt with it. The unspoken part of it is I'm saying like, look, I got over it. So it's time for you to get over it too, which is you're trying to help people get over stuff.
[00:31:19] You think I'm a suicide hotline way back when he said, if somebody is in quicksand, you don't help them by getting into the quicksand with them. And that's what sympathy is, so team me up again and I'll give you the tactical empathy.
[00:31:36] Hala Taha: Your opponent thinks you are an arrogant jerk based on past hotheaded interactions.
[00:31:42] Chris Voss: It probably feel like I'm an arrogant jerk. You probably feel like I don't listen to you, that I fly off the handle. You probably scared to say anything to me at all. Cause you never know when I'm going to blow up and it's painful for you.
[00:31:57] Hala Taha: So then they feel like, oh, he, he understands me. [00:32:00] It just makes them, feel more calm that's acknowledged.
[00:32:03] Chris Voss: Yeah. It starts to diffuse it. It makes me look honest, genuine on afraid of my shortcomings. Know you're not going to solve a problem once you're aware of the problem. If I at least articulated, at least I'm aware, I'm not giving you a sympathetic response, which is everybody deals with hothead people.
[00:32:23] It's just part of life. That doesn't show any awareness, that may be my approach might be counter. If I say, look, I probably seem like a hot headed jerk. If I begin to demonstrate at least some awareness of it, your you have an encouragement. I am never going to fix a problem that I won't even admit is a prop, first step, right?
[00:32:46] The 12 step programs. Globally, whatever 12 step thing you're dealing with. The first step is recognition of the problem. At least recognition of the dynamic. Maybe I don't even want to say it's a problem. At least I [00:33:00] recognize the dynamic, that's tremendously reassuring to the other side. And it doesn't imply that they're wrong in not reacting or they're off-base or they're, any of the negative things that simple recognition has a tendency to keep from ever getting on.
[00:33:18] Hala Taha: Okay, one more. Let's say you're doing a group project and two colleagues don't get along with each other, and they're refusing to work together. How would you diffuse that with tactical empathy?
[00:33:32] Chris Voss: So your answer might be like, look, you guys clearly see things different. You guys are clearly rubbing each other or what are we trying to accomplish here?
[00:33:45] So I, through, I did two things with that, I threw out some understanding, that wasn't pointing a finger at either person or not. I don't need them to feel the group is pointing a finger at them. [00:34:00] And I don't need a group to think they're not pointing a finger. I'm just calling out the dynamic.
[00:34:05] I'm looking to dismantle the elephant. So no foul one what question, which is a calibrated question your questions. If you ask them at all, probably out of start with what or how, because you're asking a question to create an effect and then to get people to think, and he also got to throw in correct tone of voice.
[00:34:29] Cause I could say, what are we trying to accomplish here? Which is accusatory. My voice is saying like, why don't you two idiot. See the damage you're create, but instead I go, what do we, what are we trying to accomplish here? It's curious, it's trying to get people without feeling accused, to take a look at their original reason for being in the room, original reason for being part of the group.
[00:34:58] And give them the opportunity to [00:35:00] decide whether or not they want to stick to that original reason, which is again, that autonomy thing that you were talking about earlier, which people will die to preserve their autonomy. People will walk away. People will tank deals. There's all sorts of things that, to other people that they do, that it's clearly damaging to them.
[00:35:21] Short-term and long-term, just to preserve their autonomy.
[00:35:27] Hala Taha: And that's specifically to preserve the ability to say no. So why is that so powerful? Why do people like to have the choice to say no? What's the psychology behind that?
[00:35:37] Chris Voss: Yeah, I believe it's an autonomy issue. One of the books that inspired me early on when I first started realize, that in a hostage negotiation applied to business, was a book called Start with No written back in 2002 by a guy named Jim Camp.
[00:35:53] And he was a salesman. He had backgrounds in both the military and in sports, [00:36:00] coaching. These working in a sales as a salesman, and he called it the right to veto, and his approach on Start with No was in a sales process. He would say, look, I want you to know that you can say no to that. No, to me at any time, any moment in time, it's okay to say, no, I will go away.
[00:36:18] I'm not trying to get you to say yes, without you understanding that you could say no at any moment, call it the right to veto it. Just preserving that. Suddenly he made more sales, suddenly he made more deals. It made more agreements. You made more than anybody else did. And he's, and that's where, Jim said people will die to preserve their autonomy.
[00:36:39] And I was a hostage negotiator. I'm like, yeah, no kidding. We've got people shooting themselves all the time. Just to avoid surrendering to the police. So this autonomy thing and in a right to say, no, the feeling that it's okay to say, no. It goes an awful long way in making people feel that you're not trying to [00:37:00] bamboozle.
[00:37:00] Hala Taha: Yeah. So for me, one of the least intuitive things about everything that you teach is the fact that we're not trying to get people to say yes, we're trying to get people to say no, because of this thing, we just talked about that people love to have the choice to say no, and it makes them feel in control.
[00:37:17] So talk to us about how we can ask questions in a way where people would start with no, and then agree with us and get to the yes. But they always start with saying no and then get to the, yes. So how do we ask questions like that?
[00:37:31] Chris Voss: Yeah. Most of them it's simple, but it's hard because it's so against our wiring.
[00:37:35] Like I never say, have you got a few minutes to talk? I say it is now a bad time to talk. And it would say, do you agree? I say, do you disagree? I never say, is this something that would work for you? I'd say, is this a ridiculous idea? Are you against, the transformation from yes to no is actually really simple.
[00:37:57] Once it doesn't scare the hell out of here, [00:38:00] but so many people that first time out are so afraid. Cause you're taught that yes is success. Which if you believe that it makes no by definition, failure, people are horrified of the word. Once you can cross that bridge, the rest of it is so easy.
[00:38:21] Hala Taha: Why do you think people will tend to agree with you more, and you'll get what you want when they actually say no first?
[00:38:28] Chris Voss: Well, people are conditioned from the age of two that when they say no, it makes them feel safe and protected. And it's when an adult says to a child, when a child does something wrong.
[00:38:41] No. So what does the child learn from that saying? No. Is what adults do, adults jobs to say, no how you know, and even I, it was a guy who was a Lieutenant on NYP, D he wants told me a lieutenant's job [00:39:00] was to say no, and he didn't even care what the question was. He felt like he was doing his job when he said no.
[00:39:07] So it makes no sense, but people conditioned themselves over and over like Pavlov's dog and a famous psychological experiment. When I say, no, I feel safe and in control. So get somebody to say no, because what the real issue is, you need to know what comes after the word either. Yes or no. If people, if you, if I get you to say yes, you're going to be reluctant to say anything else.
[00:39:33] 'cause you're going to feel like you're digging yourself into a hole. If I say, which is, do you agree? You might want to say yes, but here are the prompts. If I say, do you disagree? And be like, no, but I can agree unless you fix these following prompts. And I, now I've got a path forward. The really, what I need to know is I need you thinking, laying out problems for me.
[00:39:58] And when you're feeling safe and [00:40:00] secure, you can do that.
[00:40:02] Hala Taha: Yeah, it's really interesting. I feel like an easy way to test this out is even in your email, cause it might be hard to do it in person, because it's hard to think of those things on the spot, but next time you're writing an email, instead of asking a question to get them to say yes, try to ask them a question that will get them to say no.
[00:40:19] And just use that as practice. Is there any other ways that we can practice this? Cause I feel like this one gem is so powerful, if people just learn how to use it.
[00:40:27] Chris Voss: And to get used to it and just change from, have you got a few minutes to talk to is now a bad time to talk, like in all your conversations, it small stakes practice for high stakes results.
[00:40:39] So in a little bitty conversations, we're trying to get asked on a regular basis, just practice, get know instead and gain a feel and watch to see over and over again, the different kind of reactions.
[00:40:52] Hala Taha: It's so interesting. I love this topic. So let's talk about the illusion of control. How else can we give
[00:41:00] our opponent the illusion of control?
[00:41:01] What are some other tactics?
[00:41:03] Chris Voss: Yeah. The what now questions in a Black Swan method. We call calibrated questions. People love to be asked what to do. People love to be asked, had to do something. You give them the illusion of control, when you ask those questions. And negotiation not about control, to guide someone in crisis intervention and called guided discovery, it's not control.
[00:41:28] It's given the other side, a lot of latitude, but you frame things with a word or our question. And the other side doesn't feel frame. Yeah, they feel they would just ask what to do or how to do it. They feel in control. So it's given the other side of the illusion of control. It's usually through a what or how question.
[00:41:51] Hala Taha: Could you give us an example?
[00:41:52] Chris Voss: The famous, how am I supposed to do that, as a way to say no, the other side doesn't feel attacked. What it [00:42:00] really is if you can't do something because the implementation is really difficult, you say, how am I supposed to do that? Or you might say three times, how am I supposed to do that?
[00:42:12] Or you might say the third time, how am I supposed to do that? Each one of those questions makes the other side think about the complexity of the problem, but they don't know that you made them think about it. They feel in control. They feel like you're asking for help. And that's the way you get it started.
[00:42:34] Hala Taha: One more question on this general topic, accusations audits. Talk to us about that. How do we use them? What's your methodology there?
[00:42:43] Chris Voss: This whole accusations audit is doing an audit. If you will, of all the negative things. The other side might think about you now, what you think about them, but what they might think about you and it's really starts with, what's all the stuff [00:43:00] that, you're worried that you need to deny.
[00:43:02] I don't want you to think I'm greedy. I don't want you to think I'm not less than, I don't want you to think I'm disrespectful. If you're in sales, every salesperson knows that there are enough not your fault, but there are enough slimy salespeople out there that sales has got a negative connotation to the word.
[00:43:22] The car salesman used car salesman, everybody in sales understand. So you might want to say, I don't want you to think, I'm just another salesman, slick sales, whatever you might want to deny is simply take the denial out and list that stuff out and put it out. As you may think, you probably think is even stronger.
[00:43:45] I'm sure you probably think that since I'm in sales, I'm another fast talk and hustling salesperson who doesn't care about you. He just wants to push you into a deal. I'm sure you. I'm sure this is going to sound disrespectful. I'm sure this is going to sound like I don't [00:44:00] understand. You probably going to think this makes me look greedy empathy again, or the other.
[00:44:06] Say mine, see things, but just list and stuff out in advance and using it to either dismantle the elephant or. Or to keep the elephant from getting built in the first place. That's the thing that most people are most afraid of is they think you're gonna speak a negativity into existence, by calling it out.
[00:44:28] What said stupid movie, Candyman five times, boom. The bay, the boogeyman is there. What really happens is it creates this inoculating effect so much so that, if you don't have a negative thought in your head, but I know you're going to react negatively to what I'm going to say.
[00:44:49] I will say this is going to sound harsh. And then I'll let you watch you, to what you brace yourself. And you're going to give me [00:45:00] some sort of a physical signal, if not verbal, to go ahead. And this is actually now we realize is grounded in neuroscience because an emotional pain and a physical pain is almost exactly the same thing.
[00:45:15] And neuroscience is found, that if I warn you pain is coming, there's going to be a window that you need to brace yourself. If I have to find a doctor and I'm gonna put a, give you a needle. I'm gonna say is gonna hurt her somewhere between three and 20 seconds is probably the window and I need to watch you and you're going to go like, all right, give it to me and then bang, whatever that is.
[00:45:46] So if I say effectively, it's going to sound harsh, which is what I have to say is going to hurt. I'll let you brace yourself and you will appreciate the warranty and it will hurt less [00:46:00] every time.
[00:46:02] Hala Taha: Hold tight. Everyone. Let's take a quick break and hear from our sponsor. This episode of YAP is sponsored by Ritual. The multivitamin company, and trust. Protein powders can feel intimidating and their formulas are hard to understand, but the truth is deep down as an cellular level deep, we all need protein and getting the right amount of protein is more than just about building muscles.
[00:46:28] Introducing a central protein from Ritual. Here to shake things up, rituals, team of Harvard scientists. Re-imagined a protein from the ground up and inside out from how it's made to who it's for and why it's needed. The result is a delicious plant-based protein offered in three premium formulations for distinct life phases, like 18 plus 50 plus, and then pregnancy and postpartum ritual is made with nutrients to support bones, brains, and muscles to help maintain muscle mass as you [00:47:00] age.
[00:47:00] Ritual is for everyone, whether you're a gym rat looking to bulk up, or just a serious dog Walker who wants to fill gaps in their diet and age gracefully. Now, you know how important exercising is to me. I actually work out three to four times a week and I'm currently obsessed with bounce trampoline workouts, and I really try to eat healthy, but I've always been hesitant when it came to protein powders, they seem fake, they taste chalky and I've never been fully sure about what's exactly in them and what I was putting in my body.
[00:47:30] So when I found ritual and saw how easy it was to learn what's in their protein powder, it was just a no brainer for me. Their protein is soy-free, gluten-free, sugar-free and on top of all that, it just tastes good. I'm a big fan of their vanilla flavor. You deserve to know what you're putting in your body and why with Rituals, one of a kind of visible supply chain, you'll always do.
[00:47:51] In their formulas, where the ingredients came from and why they're included. So why not shake up your Ritual with a central protein to make trying [00:48:00] something new, a little less scary ritual offers a money back guarantee. So if you're not a hundred percent in love with Ritual, just send it back and you'll get your money back.
[00:48:09] Plus, my listeners will get 10% off during your first three months. Just visit ritual.com/yap. To add essential protein today. That's ritual.com/yap for 10% off, your first three months ritual.com/yap.
[00:48:26] This episode of YAP is sponsored by Notion. Hybrid work is the new normal, the strongest teams in this day and age have two things in common speed and alignment.
[00:48:36] In fact, these are our two strongest values here at YAP media, which is mostly a remote team of 70 people around the world with just a handful of us based in New York, remote hybrid and global teams need one hub. Where everyone can share work and processes, manage projects, and collaborate with clarity and not all work collaboration tools are created equal.
[00:48:58] Some help you organize your [00:49:00] company's information. Others allow you to manage projects and Notion does both. It's one tool for your whole team to do it all. And it's beautifully designed. Everyone will want to use it. Notion will help your company no matter the size, move faster by aligning everyone around, what needs to get done and making day-to-day work much more efficient.
[00:49:20] Notion is an all in one team collaboration tool that combines note taking document sharing, wikis, project management, and much more into one space. That's simple, powerful, and elegantly designed with powerful integration. Seamless navigation. You'll have everything you need in one place, so you can make speed your advantage without the silos and context.
[00:49:41] Switching that slows companies down plus notion has a worldwide network of millions of users, creating templates, tutorials, and new inspiration. The product gets better all the time, and you'll always have the support you need. Find out how notion may be the missing piece. Your team needs to grow. Get more done and delight everyone who uses [00:50:00] it in the process.
[00:50:01] You can learn more and get started for free at notion.so. You can check it out on your own and invite as many folks as you want to test how it works. Take the first step towards an organized happy team today at notion.so. That's notion.so.
[00:50:20] And it's very similar to what you just said about the pricing. When you say, Hey, like it's, you're going to think it's high. Okay. Tell me what the price is. And then like you said, they think they're expecting something way worse because you warned them. And so like you said, it probably relaxes them and then they accept it more because they were expecting something way worse.
[00:50:39] Their imagination probably took them elsewhere.
[00:50:42] Chris Voss: Exactly.
[00:50:43] Hala Taha: So let's talk about body language. You have a course on masterclass, which is super popular and congratulations on that. And in that course, you touch on the 7, 38, 55 role when it comes to body language. Could you talk to
[00:51:00] us about this? Cause we haven't talked about it yet on any of our podcasts together.
[00:51:03] Chris Voss: Basically if you add those numbers up, you get stands for tone of voice and a 55 stands for body language, which is 93% of your communication.
[00:51:14] It's not the words. And as a lot of people that, they want to argue with those numbers are accurate, they get crazy over it. And they're really the most important issues to, regardless of how strong you think those numbers are.
[00:51:34] Tone of voice and body language is a lot more important than a word, I can say to you. Wow. That was a smart remark. That's an insult. But if I were to say to you, wow, how was a smart remark as a compliment? I didn't change a word, if
[00:52:00] that doesn't illustrate to you. The difference in tone of voice, I don't change a single word and the meaning changes 180 degrees.
[00:52:11] So what about body language? Our director of business development is a young lady named David Johnson. And she's just naturally an encouraging person. And she's told me, we were talking about this year, the day. She knows. If she's talking to somebody, she tilts her head to the side and puts her eyebrows up.
[00:52:32] Like she's really interested. And she's shocked at what people will share with her. And she'll just go really. And they will start laying out stuff to her of the struggles, that they're dealing with and how much our help as a business could be for them. And she's almost astonished. She didn't even have to ask a question.
[00:52:55] She just goes really, and [00:53:00] body language can be so encouraging if you let it be or conversely, it'll shut people down. If you don't want. So it can be an enormously encouraging, enormously powerful thing to use in conjunction with your intent. I said there were two things about the 7 38 55. The real issue is when body language and tone of voice do not match up with the words.
[00:53:26] That's when you know you got a problem, it doesn't matter what the ratio is. It's when those things are not lining up, then you realize that what they're saying and what they're feeling are two different things. And then you dig into it.
[00:53:40] Hala Taha: So could you give us an example of a common example of when people's, what they say, doesn't match their body language.
[00:53:47] Chris Voss: I'm trying to get an agreement from you and you go, okay. A lot of people would say, oh, they said, okay, we're good. [00:54:00] But the way I said it, there's a lot of stuff. Cross my mind. There's a lot of things that I'm worried about. If I go, okay, you think that deals going through without a hitch, you are in for a rude surprise.
[00:54:18] How do you deal with that? You just say something as simple as what we call a label, you go, like I just say, okay. But it seemed like a lot of things crossed your mind, when you did that's what would get them? It makes them feel safe, sharing the things that went through their mind. So let's that, that, that would be an example of how their words would not match up with their town.
[00:54:50] Hala Taha: And labeling basically just acknowledges what they're feeling and you try to get the information out of them. So you're basically just telling them what you perceive [00:55:00] to be their feelings, how they're feeling.
[00:55:03] Chris Voss: Yeah, exactly. And really since the first time that we talked, we use labels a lot more than questions to get information out of people.
[00:55:12] Now, instead of saying what's on your mind today, I might say, seems like there's stuff on your mind today. Now the second way is most likely to get a lot more, really good information out of you than a first way, or what's stopping you guys from going through with this deal, would switch to seems like there's something stopping you guys from going through with this deal.
[00:55:39] At second one, that label is going to get a lot more information.
[00:55:44] Hala Taha: Do you understand why just that small shift would change the way somebody reacts to it? What's the reasoning behind that?
[00:55:50] Chris Voss: I think principally. Daniel Kahnemanwho wrote a book Thinking, Fast and Slow, talked about slow in depth thinking [00:56:00] and fast reactionary thinking.
[00:56:03] And a what question will trigger you into slow in depth thinking, which means you going to think a lot about the question, which means the answer's going to be guarded and filtered, and depending upon how much mental energy you have, you may just stop thinking about it because it's too much work. So questions cause those sorts of reactions, we're seeing on a regular basis by just go seems like for whatever reason, I know it will trigger your unvarnished thoughts to come out much more readily, so much so that when the clients say labels, unlock the flood gates of truth.
[00:56:51] Because people got so much more candid and just don't think about what they're saying. They just start sharing them. [00:57:00]
[00:57:00] Hala Taha: And then wouldn't you say that? So I guess I'm putting two strategies together. If you say seems and then you tell a lie, so that they correct you isn't that something powerful, like people love to correct other people.
[00:57:16] So if you say seems like you, you came here not wanting to make a deal, when they came here wanting to make a deal or something like that. And then they'll be like, oh no. Is that a good strategy to use?
[00:57:25] Chris Voss: Yeah. Clearly you've been doing your homework, people love the correct.
[00:57:29] Sporadically, we teach people to say stuff wrong on purpose to get correct, because the correction is, feels so good. It's almost addicting. It's ridiculous. How good people feel when they correct. And then a secondary consequence of that. It plays in your benefit. Also, I think the quote is attributed to my Angelo.
[00:57:50] People don't remember what you said. They remember how you made them feel well, if you get really closely guarded information from them, [00:58:00] you don't want them to regret telling you. So if they corrected you, when they gave you that close to the garden information, they remember how they feel. When they said it, they felt great in the moment and they're not going to regret.
[00:58:14] Sharing really intimate details with you. Cause it felt so good while they were doing.
[00:58:19] Hala Taha: Do you have an example of when you got somebody to correct themselves and how it helped you in a negotiation or just any sort of example, to really drill this home with everybody tuning in?
[00:58:29] Chris Voss: One of those students when we were teaching at Georgetown was in the midst of a real estate deal and the building was too good to be true, like a cash cow, historic district which meant it was a cash machine and it couldn't be knocked down and historic district meant competing buildings could be built.
[00:58:47] So it was a really unique building and he couldn't understand. Why the building was up for sale. And he said, seems like the owner just doesn't believe in a fundamental future of the [00:59:00] market and the agent immediately shot back. Now he's underwater on several other buildings. No, that was closely held information that no agent should ever share, but it was a correction and this guy didn't even know he was saying it wrong on purpose.
[00:59:19] He was just trying to figure it out. And so what the POS, why would a guy sell a cash cow? Is it haunted? What is going on here? And so we just said, it seems like he doesn't believe in a future fundamentals of the market and the agent shot back immediately. Information that he should not have shared because it was a correct.
[00:59:40] It's just, another company there, there are two companies are at impasse and the one company that we're coaching. They think they have a rough idea who the problem is on the other side of the table, but it's, they could only narrow it down to one or two pop possible people. So let's call them Tom and [01:00:00] Bob.
[01:00:01] So at the table, they go seems like Tom and Bob were against the steel. The counterpart said, no, it isn't Tom it's Bob. Immediately threw his colleague under the bus, but since it was a correction, he did it without thinking about it. And didn't regret sharing the information because he was correcting the other.
[01:00:20] It's crazy.
[01:00:21] Hala Taha: This is like one of the most interesting things that I've heard you say before. It really has stuck with me. So let's talk about sensitive topics. Because there's lots of sensitive topics out there right now. Anti-vax versus vacs. I'm Palestinian. So Palestine versus Israel is one that I feel very close to.
[01:00:40] There's black lives matter issues. There's so many tough conversations going on right now. And I just wonder, what advice do you have to people who are holding these discussions? There's also workplace discussions about these topics where people are wanting to open up, how can we best have these sensitive conversations. Where we can leave having a [01:01:00] meaningful conversation and not just everybody fighting and, just slamming doors.
[01:01:04] Chris Voss: Yeah. Take a counterintuitive approach and just say, look before I disagree with you, here's what I believe your point of view is and started stating the other side's position. And you're not allowed to say your point of view until the other side says that's right to you. It's that simple.
[01:01:26] And I didn't re I didn't know you were Palestinian. I love that revelation. I don't know if we had a discussion on this, on clubhouse, not that long ago, which I don't know if you're aware of, but, we, it was going to be an Israeli Palestinian discussion and it was when a bombing was going on, and Israel is not going to hack out of Gaza.
[01:01:47] And the social media arguments were just like, wow, my friend has set it up. Nicole Banham says, this is exhausting. She's Jewish. And she's I'm trying to get people to talk about this. And it's exhausting. [01:02:00] And so while we didn't have any breakthroughs that night, we also didn't have any arguments.
[01:02:09] And everybody that came to the table, highly emotional for all of their reasons. And we were used to them to turn into shouting matches and name calling right away, the real benefit to that approaches. And it was, there was one young lady that came on and she couldn't articulate a single thing. There was the Israeli point of view and she never got angry.
[01:02:38] And one of the things that I was really pleased about that was, her inability to even state the other side's point of view at all. But she was really embroiled in this emotionally and probably had one screaming match after another, that entire week. And in that conversation, her emotions did get out of [01:03:00] control.
[01:03:01] So at least she wasn't worse off by having joined the conversation. And then if that's all you can get, sometimes at least somebody not horse off by the attempted demonstration at articulating. The other side, that in and of itself is a reason to try it and see how far you can get.
[01:03:21] Hala Taha: I'm so mad that I missed that conversation.
[01:03:24] I didn't know that you guys did that, hopefully there's no next time, but maybe next time.
[01:03:30] Chris Voss: If we try.
[01:03:31] Hala Taha: We have going to have to pay attention more. Okay, Chris, this was an amazing conversation. I do want to be respectful of your time. The last question I ask, all my guests on Young And Profiting Podcast is what is your secret to profiting in life?
[01:03:45] Chris Voss: And I was just thinking about it earlier today. I'm probably two things. Yeah, it's a journey. Look, it's just the journey. They take your eyes off the destination and focus on a journey and then whatever you're [01:04:00] into, it's gotta be something that's larger than. I watched a documentary yesterday on David Geffen and David governs a billionaire.
[01:04:11] But what I really, and I didn't know anything about the guy that he's a rich Hollywood guy. And my take was that he was really dedicated to the musicians and the artists that he served, and what he was dedicated to was the creation of their art. And it was bigger than him and its sustainment. And I saw another documentary on Clive Davis, conversely, Clive Davis, dedicated to the music like he wanted to create his bigger thing was he wanted phenomenal music.
[01:04:47] And so if there's something you're dedicated to that you're pursuing, that's bigger than you. It's kinda life is going to be enormously rich. And there are other riches besides [01:05:00] money now, money's money's a meat, money's jet fuel. The other thing about Geffen, the Geffen documentary was, is it Dave, you got a billion dollars.
[01:05:09] Are you happy? And he was like, wow. Now doing my thing is what makes me happy. So that's how you become profitable. And as a last note, I, I'd like to give people an opportunity to follow up with me a possible, but I'm really glad you asked that question because there are larger things. Once you're into something larger led you, then life is going to be enormously profitable.
[01:05:36] Hala Taha: Of course. And where can our listeners go to learn more about you and everything that you do?
[01:05:41] Chris Voss: Yeah. The easiest thing to do the smartest thing is to subscribe to our newsletter. It's called the edge, comes out on Tuesday mornings, simplest way to subscribe, sign up text to sign up function. The number you text to is 33 triple seven, that's 3, 3 7, [01:06:00] 7 7.
[01:06:00] The message you said is Black Swan method, three words, that case sensitive spaces between the words, the newsletter is a gateway to everything we do. It's free, but better than that, it's calm, it's actionable and it's concise. And then it's the gateway. It really is. We get so many things that we can do to help you raise the level of your game and also look at life differently.
[01:06:28] Life's a lot more enjoyable when negotiation is no longer combative, but it's collaborative.
[01:06:34] Hala Taha: 100% and negotiations are in every area of life. Whether you know it or you don't know it, almost every interaction is a negotiation. So I'd highly recommend go signing up for his newsletter. I have his newsletter.
[01:06:46] It's great, super actionable. And then you have a lot of free resources, right? You have a lot of free resources on your website?
[01:06:52] Chris Voss: Newsletter is really the gateway to the website, which if you want to go, there is blackswanltd.com
[01:07:00] and we've got no shortage of free stuff for people. Cause you're going want to get your feet under you.
[01:07:04] You're going to want to find out where you are. At some point in time, we get some really sophisticated stuff. We would love to teach you. This is not going to do you any good until you've gone through the free material anyway. So yeah, go to the website, get the free staff, indulge yourself.
[01:07:20] Hala Taha: Awesome.
[01:07:21] So I'll put that number to text in the show notes guys, so that you don't need to write it down. Just head over to the show notes. So you guys can grab that number to text and what to text Chris. Chris, thank you so much. It was such a pleasure to have you on.
[01:07:33] Chris Voss: Thank you. Thank you. I love talking with you.
[01:07:35] You're upbeat. You're fun.
[01:07:38] Hala Taha: What an amazing conversation with Chris. He never fails us. It's always a pleasure talking to him. And this was actually my third time interviewing him. And each time I've learned some new negotiation tactics, that I'll take with me forever. When I first interviewed him back in episode number 23, the main takeaway I had from that episode [01:08:00] was all about how to name your price.
[01:08:02] He told me that you should always give an odd number when you're trying to make a sale, because odd numbers sound more thought out and people are less likely to negotiate when you give them an odd number. So you never want to just give them like an even easy number. Like it's a thousand dollars. You want to say my offer is 9 97, because then they feel like it was a way more thought out process in terms of how you priced it and that you didn't just pick out a price out of midair.
[01:08:29] So that's the one thing that I learned from him in episode number 23, that I literally use like every single day and. So if you like easy hacks like that, and you want to know the basics of negotiation, go check out episode number 23. It was my first interview with Chris and this time around, we had a more advanced conversation and I also had a lot of great takeaways.
[01:08:51] Many people believe that negotiation requires this rhetorical strength. Unwillingness to be flexible or given to your opponent's [01:09:00] wishes. And there's a place for good cop, bad cop when it comes to negotiation, but successful negotiations require a high degree of sensitivity and emotional intelligence.
[01:09:10] The art of negotiation is really about understanding your adversaries, motives and emotions and building trust. So that was a huge aha moment for me in this interview, that negotiation is not just this cut and dry win, lose affair. And in fact, research shows that there's no way to completely cut out emotion out of this haggling process that we call negotiation.
[01:09:33] So when it comes to negotiation, you always want to remember that emotions are not the obstacle. They are the solution. It's all about being empathetic, recognizing the other person's feelings and motivations, and then getting them to feel safe with you, getting them to trust you, ignoring their needs.
[01:09:50] Won't work in any negotiation. Your opponent will just become frustrated and uncooperative. To influence your counterpart's emotions. You need to first [01:10:00] identify them. You need to pick out your counterparts, deeper emotional drivers, and then use a tactic called labeling to bring them out into the open. So something related to this that we talked about in this interview was the difference between tactical empathy and sympathy to recap.
[01:10:17] Sympathy is feeling pity for someone else's misfortune, and then trying to build a bond off that pity. Tactical empathy. On the other hand is understanding somebody else's feelings in order to get what you want from them. It sounds a little manipulative, but it's not. It's about recognizing the person's perspective and feelings and then vocalizing those perspectives, and feelings so that they feel connected so that they feel like you're listening, they feel understood.
[01:10:44] And then that helps you get what you want. Tactical empathy is not the same thing as sympathy. You're not just agreeing with them. You're just understanding them and then acknowledging those feelings by vocalizing those feelings. Tactical empathy is designed to build a good faith and give your [01:11:00] negotiation partner.
[01:11:00] The illusion of control. That illusion of control is so important because people like to make decisions that they're in control over. Tactical empathy uses trust to deliberately influence your counterparts emotions. So for me, that was the biggest takeaway from this interview. And I'm going to try very hard to start practicing some of these things and making sure that I use empathy, tactical empathy in my negotiations, going forward to help make sure that I can get to those win-win solutions a little bit more easily.
[01:11:32] There were so many gems in this conversation. And if you enjoyed this episode, as much as I did, I would highly recommend that you go check out our previous episode together. Number 23, Negotiate Like a Boss with Chris Voss. In that episode, we talked about the basics of negotiation and how to use those tactics in real life.
[01:11:51] Here's a clip from that episode.
[01:11:54] Chris Voss: You get real good at that with just practice, you get into a Lyft driver and a Lyft drivers says, how are you
[01:12:00] today? And you can say, us sounds like a, been a tough day, or you pick up on their effect and they seem happy and you go, you seem happy. You get your practicing by just labeling what's on the surface.
[01:12:10] And that's how you get started. Now, emotions are crazy in that. If we label a positive, you sound happy. That increases the positive. If they're frustrated and you say, you sound frustrated. The interesting thing is labeling of a negative decreases. It has the opposite effect. So you get some practicing and you get used to hitting those emotions, which now you're clearing the way they feel understood.
[01:12:34] They want to cooperate with you. They're more collaborative because they instantly feel more understood. So it's a little bit of the karate kid wax on wax off thing. You just start labeling people and just label whatever you hear after a while, your ability to distinguish and understand what you're doing is really going to catch up to you fast.
[01:12:56] And that's how you get into people. Very quickly. [01:13:00]
[01:13:00] Hala Taha: This episode with Chris Voss was one of our YAP classics. We actually replayed it on the podcast because so many listeners enjoyed this episode. If you want to make sure you become a negotiation expert, you got to listen to that episode. Number 23, and you guys can always find me on social media.
[01:13:17] I'm on Instagram @yapwithhala or LinkedIn, just search for my name. It's Hala Taha. Big. Thanks to the amazing YAP team as always today. I want to give a special thanks to my hardworking production team here at Young And Profiting. Shout out to Matt and Puneath our audio engineers, Rebecca, our lead producer and Gretta, who is our amazing researcher.
[01:13:39] This is Hala signing off until next time.
Enter your name and email address below and I'll send you periodic updates about the podcast.